Kristinia Doughorty  00:00

So. Okay. So once again, I want to thank you for taking the time to be a part of this podcast, We really are appreciative of you both. And what we’re going to do is really start off with the Breadfruit Collective. Christine, can you explain the work of the Breadfruit Collective and why gender is important in environmental justice?

Christine Samwaroo  00:23

Hey, everyone, thank you so much for having me on the podcast, the Breadfruit Collective, it’s an NGO that’s based in Guyana, and we aim to do work at the intersections of gender, and climate justice. We really want people in Guyana to really understand the connection between these two issues because we see that it’s relevant. 80% of people that are affected by climate change are actually women and girls. And we know that climate and gender, it’s intrinsically linked. When we have disasters, when we have our planning after disasters, it’s really necessary to look at these issues with a feminist, with a gender lens. It’s really necessary when we’re building back. But think of all the groups, all the vulnerable groups that we should be including. The Breadfruit Collective, works across every interesting generation also intersectional. So we work with people from various ages. So they are, we have an annual conference that center Caribbean women for climate justice. And this is an event that he co-hosts with the Climate Conscious podcast. We have a lot of teachings on environmental awareness, also connecting it to issues of gender like reproductive justice. And also there is a focus on young people. We currently have a mentorship program. And also we have continuous environmental education with younger, younger children.

Andre Habet  01:53

Yeah, so can you give us just for…What are some of the examples of the types of activities you do that engage younger children, because I find that a particularly interesting part of your work, because, I think, I’ve seen here in Belize, that young people are regularly left out of thinking of themselves as actants. And if anything, they’re trotted out in a tokenistic way, where they’re like, ‘we have a child here to say a speech.’ And then when the child is done, they sort of just escort him off the stage. And that’s it. You don’t see the child again till the next year.

Christine Samwaroo  02:28

Yeah, definitely. I do agree with that wholeheartedly. And actually, during the pandemic, we co-authored a book with a youth group here in Guyana on climate change and health in a way that children would understand. So we created characters for young children. And we created all the characters as well. And we saw the connection in the story between the kids being very much aware of environmental disaster. we use flooding. And then trying to engage their community and involve the older people in the in the aspect of environment, why they should care about the environment. And was a very like, I guess, a book anyone can relate to if you’re from the Caribbean. And it was also something that we use some Guyanese Creole languages, so we felt like people can feel represented in the book and also honor the language because we know that as we get older, we tend to, the younger generation tend to forget that aspect of our of our culture. But going back to your your question on young people, I tend to view when we talk about youth, and when we talk about kids, I think about them differently. And I tried to engage with them differently. When I think of youths, I think they do, they are getting a little bit more attention in the climate space in the conversation. When you talk about kids we can be so youths within the ages of 16 to 23. That’s the Gen Z group. I think of them as you know, the next generation who’s going to be leading spaces. And so I engage them in a very different way to how I would engage like elementary school children because they are extremely vulnerable groups. Because when you think of the climate disaster, they depend on someone else to take care of them. When there is a climate disaster, you’re not able to attend school. And so it has a direct impact on their lives. And so even though they are young, I think it’s important to get this information about climate education to them. It’s not in our curriculum right now or widespread as it should be, because it’s so much that we expect our teachers to do all the things we expect teachers to do. 

So I think I think of using informal education as a way to bring environmental education, but also I tried to use storytelling. So I read them a book, as I mentioned, we wrote a book we co authored a book called ‘The sprouts and The Mystery of The Flood.’ But I also look for similar books, written by Caribbean authors or books that highlight these um these vague themes, like having an idea, having an opinion and having been passionate about something, and then tying it back to the environment, tying in fact to why they should care.

Andre Habet  05:16

That sounds great. I mean, I I like that you said that, you know, climate change is impacting these kids right now. Because we’re definitely seeing that. I think I’ve read articles based in Trinidad and Tobago that are looking at how climate change is affecting the likelihood of heat stress for kids in schools there, similar to hear and the different ways in which that’s exacerbated by resource issues. Like, you know, in the case of Belize, one parent told me that they couldn’t have a fan in their child’s class because the school didn’t want to add to the electricity bill. And so then you just have children in basically [a] hot box. Right? We’re talking about the tropics without a fan.

Christine Samwaroo  06:03

Yeah, definitely. And we recently, actually our Environment Ministry of Environment, environment sorry, not environment Education, recently sent out again notice[s] to teachers and telling them to like, you know, if the building is too hot, and if outside is a little bit cooler, take them outside. And it was just kind of ridiculous, because also how they dress to go to school, like the thinking about clothes that kids wear to go to school, thinking of how long they’re in the classrooms, the way buildings are built, it’s not really designed for this type of weather.

Andre Habet  06:37

Yeah, and the colonialism that that informs the way of dress, right? The way that we think that some things are formal wear, whereas like a more casual, Caribbean-appropriate style of dress is considered to that’s like you can’t dress like that if you’re going to be taken seriously. And it’s like, we’re this is not a this is not a area of suits, I guess. Moving on to this next question I had is starting with Princess I wanted to know if you can tell me about how your experiences in Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana, respectively, have led you to understand more about intersections between gender and environmental justice.

Princess Charles  07:13

Hi, everyone. So thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of this. In terms of the intersections there, I further I guess, grasp it through the Girl’s Care mentorship program that I participated with, and big up Christine one time for that. Right. And that allowed me, not to just look at what’s happening in Trinidad and Tobago, but see the relevance of what’s happening in other Caribbean countries as well, because the gender disparities isn’t just within my country, within my area. You know, girls not only have been affected by, you know, period, poverty, by issues in terms of workplace by accessing education is not just locally. So through the mentorship program, I got to speak with and listen to speakers and participants share more on what they are engaging with in their types of work. And then realize, hey, for example, as you mentioned, with Guyana versus Trinidad & Tobago, this is something that shows a lot of similarities. And even though there are differences within that, the whole, the whole essence of it is that this is more widespread than I had once was, you know, being placed to observe. It is more widespread than I have known at one point in time, and we are being affected in such significant ways, in terms of how we access care, education, support services, health care, financial aid, and it is something that is becoming so much more rampant. And climate change is just only exacerbating these issues.

Andre Habet  08:56

Ya, Thank you very much, yeah, it, I see it as an amplifier, right, that climate change takes existing issues. And I’m sure you’ve seen this in the labor space as well, right. We think of how climate change is exacerbating the likelihood of people having health issues on the job. So I definitely see it within [a] gender space too where one of my friends leads a project in Belize, that’s all about period poverty. And just you know, from her own conversations with people hearing where the conversation on menstruation for women is in terms of how, how shameful it still can be for people to even talk about it within their own families. Christina, I’d love to hear more about what you saw as the intersections that led you to forming the Breadfruit Collective.

Christine Samwaroo  09:49

Yeah, thank you so much for that Princess and to add on. So growing up, I witnessed gender-based violence like firsthand in my family and also noting that a lot of my family members were single parents, and there weren’t many opportunities. And then fast forward to 2020  during the pandemic, and you saw again, when disaster happens when women are stuck at home, usually gender-based violence goes up. And in Guyana, we have extremely high rates of domestic violence, gender-based violence, more so higher than any parts of the Caribbean. And that’s saying a lot because the rate worldwide is already high. So noting that with climate disasters, with climate events, when it happens, these things happen, these events, these gender-based events happens as well, the violence goes up, we see there is a correlation between heat, long-term heat, and also the rise of violence, interpersonal violence, and also I saw the impacts of gender during natural disasters. I remember being a child, a young child in 2005 when we had our first major climate disaster here in Guyana, and I remember, like people being stuck in their homes, especially elderly people, my grandmother, for example, being stuck in her home, not being able to access care, and depending more so on community to support you. But if you don’t have a community, then it really, really is dangerous. So I saw for me, I can’t look at the climate issue without looking at gender and seeing the impacts of it, seeing how real it is. And also, I can’t look at gender without talking about climate because climate exacerbate[s] everything that we really care about.

Kristinia Doughorty  11:39

Yeah, and it’s also really hard when you’re not in the space, and you’re not necessarily knowledgeable about the linkages. A lots of times when persons think about climate change, they think of hurricanes heat, or you know, storms, and they don’t know, okay, but this will also have impacts on other sectors until it actually becomes a real issue. So I kind of wanted to ask Princess, doing your work with gender justice, climate justice, with the Climate Tracker program, how’s it been for you to kind of push forward the narrative of gender justice and intersectionality with climate change? Understanding that, even though it’s very necessary, a lot of persons haven’t caught on to it, as yet.

Princess Charles  12:26

It’s a task. As much as I have understood what it is with indoctrination in the society, and what has been intentional for many to invoke certain beliefs and values and narratives that are absolutely against human rights. And I have to hold the same sentiment, in terms of this form of advocacy and reporting with climate justice and Climate Tracker, because ignorance is such a thing. And it is not always intentional, I guess, it’s not always on purpose. A lot of times, you know, as I said, people are sponges. They grew up absorbing certain content, certain details, the media, you know, culture, certain events. And I mean, people may have their own agendas with that, in terms of how they wanted these people to perform and  behave and operate. And that is how I had to watch it when trying to share certain messages and share certain experiences, as it relates to gender justice or climate justice. Because not many people are still grasping on to what’s happening right now. We are still in a climate crisis, and it is worsening every single day. And for example, in Trinidad Tobago, like the sun is, is it’s hot. And we see that hot, hot, hot. And people will just say ‘the sun well hot boy.’ And that’s, it’s not like ‘and what else are we going to do.’ ‘Is the sun well hot today boy’, and, and end of conversation. And not seeing the patterns that have been leading to this. And these patterns are continuing. And those who are extremely vulnerable, Women and girls are people who work in these spaces who are at such high risk. They are feeling the brunt of it. And they require the people who aren’t to be observant, aware, and you know, push for more recognition and more more measures and more services that would aid for them. And many haven’t seen it, as yet. So when I had to work in terms of advocating for these issues, because I just recently did a story for Climate Tracker concerning the heat exposure for workers. Getting them to grasp with that is, is a process and And It usually would start with presenting the information presenting accurate information. And then moving forward to letting the unlearning process begin, I suppose, because that’s where it starts, it’s understanding where, what information they had absorbed in the first place. And as somebody who gets to see what they need to let go, and then we can allow this information this will come during, and in many others to be reabsorbed. So it’s a journey. Some people did, you know, say, “Yes, I’m seeing the connections here between gender disparities and climate change.” They’re seeing how girls are more affected, they’re seeing how the other intersections between those gender aspects, as well as factors, such as disability, class, race, are so interconnected, and worsening these these, these experiences for them. They’re seeing that then there are those who just need to, you know, be involved in the same space. So it’s, it’s a work-in-progress, people are catching on. It’s just for me, and for the many others to keep doing the work that we do to get more people to catch on.

Kristinia Doughorty  16:14

Right. And I like how you say, work-in-progress, because is the work that you do, and the work that Christine does, that also helps to raise awareness, and build this level of consciousness. Because a lot of times, there’s also a lot of knowledge, but not a lot of consciousness. And especially because a lot of these terminologies are new, people don’t make the connection. So they know, they can explain gender injustice, and they can speak about how a woman would be greatly affected by the climate crisis, but they won’t call it ‘gender injustice.’ So it’s also raising that level of consciousness. Another terminology that is relatively new, or that is in and around the space now is disaster capitalism. And I’m gonna start with you, Christine. What does disaster capitalism mean to you? And how do you think it affects women and girls in your community?

Christine Samwaroo  17:11

Yes, so I think disaster capitalism for Guyana in recent years, I know when you talk about disaster capital, you’re talking most of the time, the images that come to your head is like a disaster happening, hurricane, some sort of tropical storm, and then, you know, the rebuilding aspect happening after that. But I think in Guyana, it’s very much different, because we’re not even thinking about disaster planning. So if you’re not even thinking about disaster planning, in this day and age, when you know climate change is happening, you’re seeing the effects. But yet you have you, you’re still planning along the coast, you’re still taking down mangroves that are meant to protect, protect people, protect livelihood, I think that all falls under the Disaster Capitalism, because you’re not planning, you’re not planning ahead. And therefore when the disaster happens, because we know it will happen, and we are a coastal country. And what happens next is definitely not caring for people who are the most vulnerable. It’s definitely not using feminist lens, it’s definitely not using a gender-sensitive lens to care about people. Because as I mentioned before, 95% of our people live on our very tiny strip of our coasts, it’s where all our economic activity happens. So if you’re not planning for disaster, you’re not equipping your citizens with all the tools they need. You’re really not preparing us, and therefore when disaster happens, there will be a struggle. And we know when there is a disaster, all these systems that we’re trying to deal with on a societal or a social justice aspect, it really goes out the window, because it’s a matter of survival.

Kristinia Doughorty  19:01

Yeah, and that’s a trend that we’re seeing. It’s that trend that we’re seeing across the Caribbean. And I think, would you even why it’s so much more important for journalism and regional solidarity and connections, because a lot of times when things happen, you think it’s only happening just there. I mean, I cannot tell how many times persons see how bad things are in Jamaica. And yes, things are really bad. But it brings some level of, I don’t want to say comfort, because comfort is not the right word, but knowing that your neighbor is going through a similar issue. And knowing that this is they can tackle it this way. And this is something we can bring to the forefront is also something that’s really interesting. I know Trinidad situation is a little bit different in the sense that you’re not directly within the border on the southmost end of the hurricane tracks, but you’re still very active with the volcano. Well not the volcanoes, the earthquakes and other disasters that do happen. Are you seeing a trend where there is inclusion in disaster planning? Princess, Is there anything that you’re seeing that is  saying, we’re moving towards that direction? Or you’re still a little bit hesitant?

Princess Charles  20:18

I am not seeing the necessary progress at all. And I guess it is happening in very small steps in very small ways. But then I have to question, who is it benefiting? Who is the one, who are the ones that are being included in these stages? Because one of the things that keeps getting at me is when we know we go through such a rainy, you know, season, and each year there are areas that are extremely susceptible to flooding. And, you know, I worked in spaces where there are ways to help me to get this, there are ways to, you know, reduce the impact, like risk reduction is so crucial in these spaces. And each of you will have the same the same areas flood out. Each of you have to hear these families, these groups of people requesting support and aid. And I have not seen enough of policy, enough policies, you know, enough agencies coming out and saying, you know, what can we do? What resources can we provide, what infrastructural changes, you know, that we can do to help alleviate these these effects. I have, I haven’t seen it, I’m just seeing the same thing keep happening over and over and over. And then when we look at, in order that disaster capitalist side of it, and the intentions of profits, there is someone still profiting in, in this in this in this stage in this event, this process, because it is so much easier to allow these things to happen. A lot of vulnerable communities to be hit, allow them to be, you know, disenfranchised, allow them to be harmed. And then you develop an immediate strategy, like one time, saying, you know, I’m going to, I’m going to provide something for you, but you’re gonna have to pay for it. Or there needs to be some type of financial transaction, so that I can financially profit from this, and there isn’t enough care and concern and development for prevention. It is always a process where things are gonna be, things are gonna be allowed to happen. And then you’re going to find some way to develop some type of monetary gain from it. And that keeps happening with the instances where there’s significant flooding, and keeps happening in instances where there’s excessive rains, because I have seen cases where they, the workers, they work outside. And they work in floodwaters, they work with the rains. And when there’s a storm of sorts, they will rather come and say, You know what, I am going to reduce the sale of the umbrellas, so that I can get more customers to come in. But I’m not going to do anything to not make the workers that I have employed, not be exposed to that that type of weather. So, again, I’m not, I haven’t seen it, I’m not seeing much efforts. And I guess, again, I don’t want to give us so much, you know, doubts, in terms of there might be small steps taking place, but it’s not enough to really see some some sort of change, the change that we need right now.

Andre Habet  23:40

Oh, definitely. I, I feel the same way about how when I look at things in Belize, where we see so much call for climate finance. But when you ask at the end of the day, where did that project’s money go to? Nobody can point to anything tangible. And even, you know, digital infrastructure, there’s no no availability of information in the way that there should be at this point in time. Before I move on to the next question, I just wanted to highlight that something that Kristinia and Christine had said earlier, really calls to mind this idea of almost national gaslighting, being gaslit by our own government. And maybe that’s why we appreciate having this sort of solidarity is because then we can recognize ‘No, this is just the technique that’s being used across places because, one of our members, we were having a meeting earlier today was talking about how they were positioned by their government as people who were just busy bodies. And that to me was very interesting to hear because it was trying to diminish their legitimate concerns about being displaced from their lands. And having that reduced to ‘You’re interfering into wanting to know something that you have no business to know that this is for us to know. And if you get to even know that information, you’re lucky’ and that’s the same way A, you know, my government acts to in Belize, where they, they might be a bit more vocal. But it’s not like the legislative processes any transparency. People don’t see legislation until it hits the floor. And then maybe there might be like a week for anybody to mobilize and contribute to it. But in the meantime, what’s really being done is exactly what Princess was saying, where everybody’s just revising it, not for the benefit of people, but finding out okay, how can I get my lee 2 million from this project, so that I can, you know, have my cousin build a road, so that, then he could give me a lee 100,000 from that. And that’s where really their energy is going. It’s not to overall improvement of the infrastructure. For instance, right now we have a street, like two blocks from me that’s being repaired right now ‘repaired’, but it’s only being repaired in the sense that everything that happened to it that destroyed it is going to happen again, within another two rainy seasons, right? So then it’s like, that’s, to me a poor investment overall. And I’m sure all of us have numerous cases of of the same thing happening to our spaces. I don’t know if anybody wanted to comment on any of that before it moved on, but just want to open the floor.

Christine Samwaroo  26:12

Yeah, definitely. I’m thinking of Malene [Alleyne of Freedom Imaginaries] and you know, she talks a lot about the sacrifice zones. And I think of living on the coast of Guyana. And because it’s. Growing growing up, you always heard about it being below sea level. And we know that it’s been below sea level, since I was a child, like you always talk about this, the common person will talk about it, but yet all of our people are here, well, 95% of our population are here. And now we talk about, we’re seeing all these construction happening because we have been developed, quote, unquote, development, explore exploration of oil and gas happening. And so you’re seeing all these big buildings that are going up from left and right. And you talk about, we talk about the weather, the weather being so hot, you have construction workers being out there in the heat all day working on these buildings, there are so many deaths that have had been reported. Because again, health and safety is not a concern. The concern is getting these buildings up and running, because people are coming into Guyana, foreigners are coming, or investors are coming, so you have to create space for them. And I think of the full circle of that. Here we have construction workers working in the heat, not caring about, you know, their employers not really caring about their well-being and their health. And you’re building these buildings to fulfill like a mandate that doesn’t really serve the country. And you’re in this space of land that we know are very vulnerable to climate disasters. So in another few years, even though these buildings are new, they’re not really following any codes, you’re building because they need to build, and in a couple of years, you’ll see the effects of it. And it’s just sad to see this because again, we have we have we’re at a place in time where we can change things here we have resources, we have enough lessons, best  practices, we already can do things better, and yet we are not.

Kristinia Doughorty  28:12

And with all of what is being said what we’re seeing is things that we’re seeing in our everyday lives, you know, you go everyday is another example. Either you, Christine or Princess, do you think these inequalities and these vulnerabilities are structural? Do you think these are by chance? Because it makes you wonder if we can see these issues, then everybody else can see these issues and the persons we’re putting, that we put in charge at your recall to recall we vote we elect. You begged us really to vote for you and put you in power. They can also see too. So is it intentional? Do you believe it’s intentional? Do you believe it’s structural? Or do you think it’s like a legacy or maybe a combination of the them all? Princess?

Princess Charles  29:05

Yeah, I think it’s definitely intentional. And I saw much of this, especially in terms of capitalist exploitation. They have structured things in such a way that there is always going to be someone who needs them to be exploited. So they created systems where they can extract as much as possible at the expense of others, for profit for themselves. And it is an intentional, well-thought meticulous process. They have charted down to, broken down to a science because they have to analyze who are they willing to sacrifice, who are they willing to let, you know, be harmed in these processes. They needed to think about – who are they willing to leave behind? And it’s, none of it has been by chance. They had to create hierarchies of class structures, they had to create systems where certain, you know, identities are going to be an afterthought in this decision-making processes. And the thing about is is that when oftentimes, like, if we, for example, we’re looking at political leaders, they will, you know, they’re aware of these things, because people have been talking about these things for decades, people continue to talk about these things. And, you know, as as it was mentioned before, they may not use the terminology that we may use right now, they may not use the exact phrases or, you know, sources and studies, but they know what’s happening, and they’ve been talking about it. I have seen people in their 60s come when it’s when they stand for election and come and say they voted for this government cause XYZ because they didn’t do this, and they didn’t do that, and they didn’t know. And so do these leaders know? So do these authorities know? So do these, these businesses, and well-off one bodies know what is happening because they continue to allow it to happen. And they further contributed to its structure. And it, none of it will ever be a system of chance. It will always be something that is planned out, and they will continue to plan to see how else can they extract? And how else can the environments be be sacrificed? How is how people’s lives? How it can? Animalshomes, can habitats be sacrificed in these spaces?

Andre Habet  31:34

Yeah, I’m bringing that to the idea of getting to something Christine was saying earlier of sacrifice zones. And this next question is looking at the idea of women being this gender, essentially, that is considered to be a sacrifice zone, where they can be the recipient of the worst of the worst that the society has to provide at any given moment. Christine, you also mentioned that, you know, during natural hazards in the wake of them, there is sometimes an increased rate of domestic violence, right? And that being connected to essentially men not really having the emotional intelligence to cope with the disaster, and then women having to both bear the abuse, but also withstand, like, basically coming up with an actual response, right? How does our family continue, and then, so many women leading this, these sort of informal markets that allow a community to maintain itself within the wake of a disaster. So your your work with. You’ve both worked to work directly with other women and young girls, and what I’m curious about is, how do you see the impact of that in its, in its, in how it’s maybe changing at the grassroots level? The ways in which women engage with the idea of climate and gender justice? Like how do you how what’s the effect on like, increasing that sensibility that these things are linked among, among women and young girls?

Christine Samwaroo  33:07

Yeah, I think we’re definitely waking up to the call in spaces, where you have women leading, [but] most often or not, just because a person is in leadership, in a high role and you’re female, doesn’t mean that they’ll be anti-capitalist and pro-feminist. But what I’m seeing in the climate space, in both spaces that Princess and I have been a part of is, we find that when Caribbean women when they are excuses of, you know, when they’re in a space where they can create another for another person, they have been doing it, I’ll let her speak on the Girls Care program as being one such program. And for me, I’ll speak of the Breadfruit Collective, I think it’s really necessary for us to create these spaces for young girls to like, see themselves represented and see themselves as agents of change. And what I find through the mentorship program that I have in Guyana, this is an in-person fellowship for girls between the ages of six and 23. And we work we center mental wellness, and writing as a tool. So they’re interested in various aspects of social justice, but really focusing focusing in on – what do we want? Or what do they want to see the Guyana of the future to look like? And using writing as a tool and seeing that, you know, they are spaces for them, because we are creating. In the Caribbean we have limited opportunities. When we do have the opportunities, those who always get it are the ones that are always going to get it because again, we’re not thinking of this as abundance. We have this scarcity thinking of all, it’s only one position, so it’s only for you, you should be the only one taking it because you have all the experience. But we have to like flip that model and see how we can work as a communal and how we can like prepare the next generation of women, of girls and boys of everyone, to battle these disasters that they they’re going to be facing, because it’s only when you think of social justice issues on all aspects of it, [and] when you tie in climate, it just worsens.

Andre Habet  35:20

Princess, do you want to speak on the Care? Sorry. Great.

Princess Charles  35:24

It’s okay, I definitely agree there, we are recognizing the call. And in the goes in goes to show the importance of belonging, and, you know, understanding that this is not being done alone, by myself by by Christine, you know, by other advocates, you know, this is something that we are all seeing and working towards, because when I did the mentorship at Girls Care, I really identified with the goals that was shared collectively. And I really emphasized much on collectivist action, collaborative action, rather than an individualist system, because that has been something that has been ingrained throughout society, that if something happens, it’s the fault of the person, rather than the fault in terms of the system. And so working with teams, and you know, working in mentorship programs, like Girls Care, allow me to realize that this is something that we can do together. And, you know, girls and women, youth groups in these spaces.. us,  are taking up the mantle and saying, ‘You know what, we have to create a safe space and a safer future.’ And it has really, you know, taken a great step in advance. And I’m, I’m extremely proud to be a part of that, that unit, because it is something that again, I started this year, one thing that I did a lot of things with others, unify with others in different ways, but the extremity of that program, heightened everything that I’m doing right now. And it’s something that, you know, a lot of us would be and continue to be very grateful for.

Kristinia Doughorty  37:08

Yeah, and I’m really grateful that you were able to experience that and see it in, you know, go through that mentorship process, because even, it’s always nicer to, to learn these things through mentorship. As for me, I kind of experienced, or was exposed to lots of these things through like an academic approach. And you know, the theoretic, the theoretic stuff, it’s all, but when you actually look at it, in like a real world lens, and have persons, who are like mentors, able to like, show you and make the connection, it brings it closer to home. And it brings us a lot more full circle. Another topic I see going around in the literature and in different spaces is reproductive justice. And for the persons who will be listening to this podcast, is there any difference between reproductive and gender justice? And why should? Why should both of them be considered within the climate justice framework? I’ll ask that to Christine.

Christine Samwaroo  38:09

Yeah, I really am grateful that you included this question because when we look at the state of the world, especially like, quote, unquote, superpowers, and talk about reproductive justice, and all the legislation, all the roadblocks that are happening, and we looked at the Caribbean, and I think we always say this, and this is something we really believe in as feminist: Gender Justice is climate justice. And as part of that climate, as part of that gender justice is reproductive justice. You have to talk about the overall well being of a person and their autonomy to their physical, mental, spiritual, emotional health. It’s about rights and access. And in Guyana, I’m happy to say that we are one of the only countries in the Caribbean that have, it’s actually legal to have, to access abortion. It’s been that way since 1995. If you go on the road, and you ask a regular person on the street if they know that, they’ll say they didn’t, they didn’t know that this was a legal procedure that can happen. This is something that you can get for free. Because again, the structures that are in place, although we have this piece of legislation, people aren’t aware of it. So it just goes to show how far legislation goes and the limits that it has because it’s necessary to enforce those legislations and important to empower people to know the laws that they have. And so that there wouldn’t be a stigma or taboo or they wouldn’t be taken advantage of by doctors and hospitals because it is a regular procedure. And when you think about autonomy, when you think of the women, when you think of women and girls and the environment, there’s also a link to this domination that continues to happen on women’s bodies and the environment. And there’s definitely that connection when we talk about reproductive [rights] access and safety.

Kristinia Doughorty  40:02

And you, Princess, what’s your take on gender justice and reproductive justice?

Princess Charles  40:10

There are some, some extremely strong connections there. What I thought about when Christine was speaking is that, you know, the agenda that exists to kind of push back is so prevalent because I did not know that was a thing, that it was legal there. And that and to hear that persons, locals in the country don’t know either. Maybe also the same persons who have access to, you know, international media, and they are seeing that there are so many bans happening. There are so many enactments on legislation that are stopping services, people are deciding to act out and burn and, you know, have have the spaces where they’re provided these services, they’re probably saying, ‘You know what? Well, if that’s happening there, that is probably what’s happening here.’ They’re the that was that is also an intentional process, because they will continue to be unaware of what’s happening in their own country. In Trinidad and Tobago it is very similar, the agendas that are continuing, is backed by [tropes], where they are too, trying to take away as much as they can, in terms of access to services for girls and women. But there are certain groups such as feminists, who are trying to build stronger connections towards gender and reproductive justice. So they are amplifying the initiatives such as they are working on a campaign that they provide free menstrual products, to the many areas. I think they just reach the 12 areas just recently. And that is how they are bridging the gaps from what is happening internationally. Because people will always say, and I hear this a lot in Trinidad and Tobago, that we tried to do what them doing abroad, we’re trying to copy them from abroad. And they are not also watching that harmful systems that they’re trying to hold in place are also being followed here as well. So there are there must be things that we do within our communities to reverse but also abolish abolishing those type of behaviors and patterns and actions. And that’s where understanding that reproductive and gender justice must be a critical role. It always has. And you know a lot of people will identify with it in their own ways, but it is very relevant to a lot of things that are also happening in terms of the climate, environmental spaces, and other spaces that will address that quality.

Andre Habet  42:57

Thanks a lot to the both of you. I just want to close with one final question. Where do you think the Caribbean needs to go to better integrate gender justice and its approaches to climate justice? Do you know any efforts at a local level that work as models to improve this work that you’ve seen? Princess, we can start with you.

Princess Charles  43:15

[talk the word feminist again] because, um, but they really I, I worked with them, I think probably a year or two back and I was where I was open to the concept of sexual and reproductive health and that type of education to break stigmas and identify with the the importance of gender justice. And there will continue to be very impactful because they are doing something that a lot of organizations, I guess, authorities are people with that type of ability on doing which is providing care and services. And one of the things that many do not factored is how a lot of people you know, not only in Trinidad and Tobago but within the Caribbean region and globally, do not have equivalent access to such care and services as simple as menstrual care. And providing a system where, you know, you can just get up, if you need a certain product, you have an area right down the road that you can just go in and pick up what you need. And it defies the capitalist system, it defies systems where it has been centered on profit, it defies the system where our value is tied to profit because to be able to just get up out of your house and go buy a [new facility] and access menstrual services menstrual products and services. Education is something that it recognizes your your needs for care and your autonomy, rather than your ability to have to work and be of monetary value to access such care. So I think that is all, that is what I want to highlight again, because it’s something that is very impactful. And I continue to be admired. I continue to admire it, and try to influence it in my work processes as well.

Andre Habet  45:19

Thank you and Christine…

Christine Samwaroo  45:22

I definitely agree with everything Princess noted. And I think what we’re seeing is a lot of these movements that are starting up, they’re done by young feminists, and because they’re able to look at these issues as not just one issue, not a single issue, but look at all the connections that it has on people, on the environment, on the well-being of a person, because we’re able to look at it. And because we’ve seen the current system and how it hasn’t worked for us, I think, feminism as being a leader in this movement of menstrual equity, I think of when you think of mentorship, it’s really necessary for us as climate young Climate Leaders. And I think of girls Girls Care and everything that they’re doing to mentor the next generation of climate leaders and making sure that we’re equipped with all the tools. So when we get into those spaces, whereby we’re talking about climate change at the highest level, we know that we have allies. We know that we have the big sister, or someone like that, is looking out for us, you know. So I think mentorship is important. I also think of Helen’s Daughter in St. Lucia and what they’re doing with agriculture, and connecting agriculture with people, women, specifically farmers, and equipping them with the skills to have businesses and to be able to grow their produce and sell it and be able to have autonomy in that way. And then I come back to Guyana, and I think of the Breadfruit Collective and everything we’re trying to do to understand the intersection of the issue, and to work with communities like Red Thread, who that’s the oldest women’s organization in Guyana, working with them to understand gender-based violence, working with youth groups to understand where we are in a society, how do we centre young people work with disability groups to understand how we can support their work, but at the same time, how we can equip them with the skills, like how we can share our resources, because again, although we’re doing all these amazing work, what we see continuously is young people, specifically young women who are being overworked, one. Two, they do the work at the grassroots level, but they don’t always get,  they don’t always get the credit. They’re not always the one making the decision, unless you will we have been done have been doing is going out and forming our own groups. And the last group I would note is the YZ Women Collective in Guyana, it’s an indigenous group, and they’re located in the interior. And again, they are, they are equipping and empowering Indigenous women and girls with the skills to talk about climate change in their community. So there are many, many different movements. And I think because of this, because it’s also the conference that we have annually, I mentioned the Caribbean women for climate justice. It provides a space for Caribbean women and young people, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people to come together and share their perspective on climate justice using using a feminist lens. I think it’s a space where people are able to come and share their their work, their ideas, perspective, and also a space whereby people can network with each other and learn from each other because there’s so much happening in our region. We know in the Caribbean, we have the knowledge we have, we have ancestral and indigenous wisdom of how to live in harmony with the environment. But it’s time to really tap into that and to remember that our foreparents actually knew how to live on this land. So how do we reconnect and reclaim that that power that we have?

Andre Habet  49:07

That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I think it’s really important as a takeaway from this conversation that people recognize that it’s still like the base level needs that we still need to be working to address right. People, I think a lot of men especially, are prone to be thinking these loftier ideas, and I think we all have lofty ideas about what we’d like to see happen. But we also need to address the day to day needs that have not been met even prior to anything resembling climate justice having materialized … climate justice is really just putting, you know, just exposing all the cracks in the very flimsy infrastructure that existed. And I’m hoping that we can still develop a more gender-equitable future even amidst an increased climate crisis. So thank you both for your time and I just wanted to ask if there was anything you want to  highlight about upcoming projects or works that you would like our audience to know about. Princess, I know that your writing is on climate tracker, and in Caribbean Feminists. I’ve really appreciated a lot of the reading you’ve done. And Christine, I, I, you know, you’ve always got everything going on in Breadfruit Collective, but is there anything you will want to mention that give special attention to?

Christine Samwaroo  50:27

Definitely to keep up on social media, because as you said, there is so much that’s happening. And one of the things I would encourage persons to look out for is we’re working with CANARI. And I’m a part of the gender working group. All of that we’re going to be highlighting and we definitely need, like we always say, we need the masses of support for people to be aware of these issues, not just the same people being aware of the issue, but how can other people that may not be working in this space be involved. And I think the best way is to keep up with us, because there’s so much happening all the links all the time. So definitely keep up on our various platforms.

Princess Charles  51:21

Oh, thank you so much for highlighting Caribbean Feminist, Climate Tracker, I’m actually continuing a series with Caribbean feminist on redefining work. And I’m really thankful for having this conversation, because the next few stories would be around these type of topics, but through the lens of labor and water justice, so it is going to be something that is very gendered. It’s going to be something that is going to amplify feminist approaches and policies and safety and health, immunization. And it is going to involve a lot of people, a lot of speakers, a lot of persons who advocate in these gender disparity situations and who advocate for gender justice, feminist justice, climate justice, and worker justice in a forum where we can share our insights, and what ways we can strategize to create safer spaces for workers. So please stay tuned on Caribbean Feminist, and I’m so excited to see more persons engaged with our work.

Andre Habet  52:28

That sounds great. I’m really excited to read that piece because that’s definitely something I’ve been thinking about a lot as the Chamber of Commerce in Belize continues to deny any possibility of an Occupational Safety and Hazard Act from being passed here. So really, it’s becoming urgent that we address this here and everywhere in the Caribbean. So thank you for doing that work. And I’m looking forward to engaging with that content.

Kristinia Doughorty  52:53

Yeah, and I want to say thank you both for the work that you’re doing. I always say that what it said that risk is a social construct, and disasters are not natural, they’re a process of, you know, governmental and social issues. So the work that you’re doing is helping day by day to break down some of those structural barriers. And so i am keeping the fire with you guys and hoping that you guys continue to do the work so that our future generation and our future sisters, girls and boys, will be able to benefit from what you’re doing. So thank you very much.

Andre Habet  53:28

Thanks all. Have a good evening.

Christine Samwaroo  53:31

Thank you so much.

Princess Charles  53:34

Thanks, everyone. Take care. 

Andre Habet  53:36

Take care, too. I enjoyed this conversation a lot. I appreciate it. 

Princess Charles  53:39

It was a really good talk [ ] Because I don’t drink coffee. Bye guys.